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Poster: BensDad Date: Nov 29, 2005 3:37pm
Forum: etree Subject: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

A serious question:

It has been stated by someone from GDP who will not reveal their identity that LMA never had permission from the band to allow the uploading of their music to the LMA in the first place (especially the SBDS) and that you guys used the mp3 policy and went with it anyway without any written permission from anyone from GDP. It was also said that The LMA will not deny that they never "officially" gave you permission. Is this true? I was under the impression that this site has not and will not allow ANY bands music to be uploaded here without their distinct written permission. Is this the case? Did they or did they not personally give you permission to allow their material to be uploaded here? If in fact you did not have permission then it makes sense as to why they are being pulled and why Dennis McNally is "throwing Stones" at the LMA. If they did at one time give you permission then they have obviously gone back on their word.

I am just trying to keep things in perspective here...I am still on the fence.

Also, Phil and Friends and Ratdog shows started showing up after The Grateful Dead did. Did anyone from either Phil or Bobby's camp give you permission to upload their live shows? Are they going to eventually be pulled as well?

I am confused but I am still listening to the music play...

-------------------------------------
I got this from the LMA. I am no lawyer so bear with me:

I'm an artist who would like to be included in the Archive, what do I need to do?

We'd love to have you! Just write to us at etree at archive dot org in English giving some kind of permission for us to archive your shows for public download and noncommercial, royalty-free circulation. It does not need to be a formally worded declaration, and can come from anyone you feel has the "say-so." We just need to be clear on how you feel about the project. We will put relevant quotes in our Band Information section, along with a link to your official website.

If you happen to make your own Band Information section, it is still necessary to email us in order to activate the section. We want to be sure that the desired listing really is coming from you (more discussion here).

You can give as much or as little scope for archiving as you like. Some bands place limits on what can be hosted, and we can accomodate those. Archive Curators, volunteer fans who have proven to be in line with the spirit of this archive, will attempt to screen contributions for OK'ed material only.

At the same time you give the go-ahead, feel free to pass along any notes or policy links on your general taping/trading stance as well. You don't need to have a formal written or posted policy before inclusion, but we'd like to know how you feel about the topic.

Besides fans' sending their copies of your shows, you can also prepare and upload your own live recordings to the Archive, if you like. In fact, if you'd like to limit your material to selected contributions from you only, please just let us know.

--------------------------------------

So did you use the mp3 policy or did you get permission?

This post was modified by BensDad on 2005-11-29 23:37:44

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffTyler Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:00pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

Did anyone from either Phil or Bobby's camp give you permission to upload their live shows?

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-details.php?band=Phil%20Lesh%20and%20Friends
http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-details.php?band=Ratdog

I don't know what the Phil section entailed, I was not involved with that. Ratdog though, we received (and there they are, pasted in) direct permission and correspondences with Peter Ammerall, ratdog archivist.

So did you use the mp3 policy or did you get permission [for GD]?

I was not involved with the setup of the section / GD project at all, but I do know that when the GD section was set up, a new drop down item was created for us to use when setting up a band: "Policy allows archives" .. which the section for GD was flagged with that description, rather then the standard flag we put for most band activations: "Responded with permission". To be fair, i'm sure discussions were held from all sides of all camps, but regardless, the entry for the band did say (and still does say):

"Permission status: Policy allows archives"

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-details.php?band_id=3

most bands, like say a recent band 'Motivational Speakers' have their entry:

"Permission status: Responded with permission"

http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-details.php?band=Motivational%20Speakers

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Poster: BensDad Date: Nov 29, 2005 4:13pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

Thanks Tyler,

I got ya on that part. So how does the mp3 policy statement that is widely known and discussed cover the lossless files in the "Policy allows archives" argument? How were those lossless files allowed to be archived if that is not part of the "policy?" Sorry, I am just trying to understand all of this on a lower level...I'm just a bartender ;)

Like you said..." i'm sure discussions were held from all sides of all camps" and if in fact that were true then what McNally said in the NY Times article was not true...

"These folks assembled a Deadhead's dream collection and made it available," Mr. McNally said. "When we discovered it, we decided to take a wait-and-see approach."

That would mean that from the git go they had no idea it was going up, which would in turn mean that LMA did indeed not have permission to allow their lossless files to be uploaded but it was ok (per their mp3 policy) to upload just the mp3 files, otherwise someone is not being totally clear about whether or not permission had been given before the shows started be showing up...D****T this is confusing...

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 9:08pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

Just to add some historical perspective:

The drafting of the GD "MP3 Site Operators" policy in early 1999 (or before? I don't know) essentially predated the lossless download era, which was in its barest infancy at the time among a relatively small circle of early-adopter traders out of the public eye. Mp3 downloads were covered, because that's what there was in public then.

Perhaps John Barlow, John Gilmore or whoever helped draft that document (never updated since 1999) would have added something about SHN (there was no flac) if they had been more aware of it then.

"That a new medium of distribution has arisen - digital audio files being traded over the Internet - does not change our policy in this regard."

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-30 05:08:53

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Dec 1, 2005 1:37am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/01/arts/music/01dead.html
Remarks from Mr. Barlow in that article indicate the policy was from 1997, so there was not even any lossless trading or downloading even to specify then AFAIK! In fact, fan audio CD-CD trading itself was only just starting up then as people were just starting to move away from cassette tapes.

The 2 relevant paragraphs:
But there was also some question as to how explicit the band's permission had been in allowing files to be placed in the Live Music Archive to begin with. Mr. Barlow said the band had had a policy since 1997 that "we had no more problem with someone digital file sharing than we had with tape sharing." He said he had relayed that policy to operators of the archive when they contacted him.

"I said that, given that's our policy, I don't see a problem," Mr. Barlow said. But, he acknowledged, he had also feared that a request for explicit permission from the band's corporate entity might get snarled in band politics - which seemed to be the case this week.

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Poster: Olo Date: Nov 29, 2005 9:33pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

I'm curious as to what exactly are people "trading" here?
Even BT sites could be construed as a form of trade, but LMA is merely a hosting site for anyone to grab and not give anything back.
How does that fit with GD policy of "digital audio files being traded"??????
Answer:
It doesn't.
Liberty? Find your own way home.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffDiana Hamilton Date: Nov 29, 2005 10:45pm
Forum: etree Subject: Re: Trading and the Gift Culture

Good question! *Does* fans' giving away music as a straight gift, without expectation of tit-for-tat return, count as trading?

All the material in the GD collection here was assembled by a large community of lossless-trader/uploader Deadheads. We participants traded directly person-to-person, and did B&Ps person-to-person, but we also put up our files at this and other sites knowing that hundreds or more fellow fans would obtain them, even without our getting hundreds of CDs in return. Our names and nicknames are all over the info files and metadata of these filesets, but not out of a need to send us participants anything.

You're right, perhaps this altruism is not strictly "trading". But perhaps it is something more.

Even though the "conclusion has been that it doesn't represent Grateful Dead values," that altruism still feels like the right core value to me, and I'm not ashamed to have my family's name on a few of those filesets.

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2005-11-30 06:45:04

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Poster: HopOttin Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:31am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

I guess I had better call up all those people I gave free copies of shows to and tell them that they owe me something in return so that we're in compliance with "trading" policies and proceedures .

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Poster: DEADBUCK Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:41am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

OH YEAH...YOU BETTER...AND DOES THIS MEAN IF I BUY DINNER .....OK OK OK...JUST A BAD JOKE RELAX! JUST A LITTLE HUMOR TO LIGHTEN THINGS AS I SIT HERE BURNING PREVIOUSLY DL SHOWS FROM BEFORE ALL THIS MESS...THE BEST THING IS THAT I CAN BURN ALL THE ONES I WAS PROCRASTINATING ON W/O GETTING MORE FOR NOW....AND YES...I HAVE ACTUALLY EXCHANGED CDS WITH OTHER HEADS....

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Poster: fiyo fiyo Date: Nov 30, 2005 12:50am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

this is bull.... phil totally knew about the shows getting pulled... he's been money hungry since day one... that's why he was always pushing to tour year round.... he wasn't in it only for the music like jer... it's about the money for phil.... and does anyone know where i can get a list of dates and venues for every dead show played?

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Poster: jeff lester Date: Nov 30, 2005 9:42am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

"and does anyone know where i can get a list of dates and venues for every dead show played?"

www.deadlists.com
or
www.deadbase.com

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Poster: rmcd111 Date: Nov 30, 2005 11:24am
Forum: etree Subject: Re: I have a GD question for LMA Admin.

To Dennis Mcnally et al,
I have an idea if the LMA is so threatening....Offer the vault up tommorrow? Subscription model, per show per song only drums and space only long way to go homes no vince all vince whatever who cares it has been 10 years if people had acces they would pay if that is what everybody is worried about $$$$$$$$$ then offer the product helloooooooo? Thank god for the greatest base player ever